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shaxe


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# Thread - 13.09.2015 at 23:07
Personally, I get fatigued with how long these matches take, and I know i'm not alone. for something that is meant to be more light hearted and easy going i feel like i've just been playing 2 ESL CEP matches in a row. I think for the sake of this competition surviving and people not losing interest you need to address this now and not next season. I will try keep this short, here's some ideas I have on improving this comp.

5 or 6 maps per week would be much more enjoyable, if you implemented this next week you could simply divide the current points that players have by the fraction of the new number divided by 10. So if you go with 5 tracks per week, simply divide the current points by 2, if you go with 6 tracks, divide the current points by 1.666 and round up to the nearest point or do 4 tracks and divide the points by 2.5.

I feel like if you don't do this you will have a lot less players remaining by the end of the season.

There's also a matter of having to be prepared for any of the 30 maps, I think if you made a change where you used 10 or 15 of the maps for the first month and the other 10 or 15 for month 2, it would be a lot easier and more realistic for people to get some training in and it would make things a lot more competitive and fun. Right now, with what little time people have to practice or even at least get to know the maps, the idea of getting to know 30 of them within a couple of weeks is just daunting and off-putting, getting to know 15 isn't anywhere near as bad.


Last edit by shaxe at 13.09.2015 at 23:07 (1x Edited)
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shaxe
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# Answer: 1 - 13.09.2015 at 23:11
And if say, Div 1 loves doing 10 a week, maybe div 1 can do that and the rest of us in the other divs can have less demanding matches.


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Bull


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# Answer: 2 - 13.09.2015 at 23:26
I think the system should be 5 maps per race day. This cuts the play time by atleast half from the current one which can take upwards of 1 hr and 30 mins. Players were complaining the matches are too long. As mentioned MANY times before, the amount of maps to train is WAY too much, I think 10 per month is manageable for everyone rather than 30 for 2 months. Then after the 1st month, release 10 more. That way, atleast 5 of the 10 maps they trained will be played so the rounds can be closer and more enjoyable to watch. The matches have been really boring because nobody knows the maps. Point system needs to be adjusted because people who DNF once are screwed. Point system should be more valuable for finishing at the top and not like a 9 point difference from 1st for finishing 10th. I get the point, but DNFs occur too often because the maps are unknown. So the fix is to make the end round time longer or that, but the end round time would be too long for others to wait. I suggest a point system of 20, 18, 16, 14, 12, 10, 8, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1. This makes it better for those who DNF because they wont be completely out of it then.


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no SkiLL but LucK

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# Answer: 3 - 13.09.2015 at 23:26
Thx for your feedback shaxe. we cant change the total map amount this season. for the amount beeing played we will catch up your idea. we remarked same, that 10 maps are too many.
we need to find a fair key and we will implement it =)

for jext season i can promise there will be a lot less maps in total

written on mobile


------------------


--> each minority has the right to be discriminated <--
--> a lapdance is so much better when the stripper is crying <--
Guckt mal dieser Junge hat ein Busen. Wer hat ein nasses Handtuch? Komm her du Sahnebutterhupfdole.


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shaxe
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# Answer: 4 - 13.09.2015 at 23:39
I don't want to keep preaching on it, but you should get the pulse of the community first, if everyone wants matches not to take so long then you should do it asap or people are going to not bother playing season 1. I know I really don't want to do these 1.5 hour matches every week for the next 6 weeks. As much as i love the idea of this competition and how well it has been put together, I don't know if i have it in me to play these grueling matches that aren't even very competitive because 70% of the players barely know the map, as bull says. I can't see why you couldn't make changes right away for the sake of saving the season.

EDIT: I misread your post sorry Lara, i thought you were saying the less maps for a match can't be done this season.


Last edit by shaxe at 14.09.2015 at 03:19 (2x Edited)
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nuls

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# Answer: 5 - 14.09.2015 at 11:54
http://cpl.dore2cuo.de/votes

just vote and spread it to all cpl racers.



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Kaaskekie


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# Answer: 6 - 15.09.2015 at 03:24
Hi all.

The vote is wrong in many ways.

Why dont we first analyze the options:
If people feel the matches take too long, there could be several reasons:
1. max points for victory is too high
2. too many maps
3. maps are not known due to large map pool, this reduces entertainment especially if the competition knows them.

For me, its 1 and 3.

Your vote does not address any of these points.


Additionally, due to the qualification setup, a lot of `elite`players are divided over the divisions. This is not a problem if the less elite have the option to train and get closer to their pbs.

A personal note:With a map pool of 30, i have no ambition to try to be a competitor for the Halko guys in div 3, by the time i get close to their pbs, the season is over.

Hope this helps.



Last edit by Kaaskekie at 15.09.2015 at 03:28 (1x Edited)
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nuls

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# Answer: 7 - 15.09.2015 at 10:39
thx for your feedback Kaaskekie.

but keep in mind we are talking about season1 atm. for following seasons we will start different votes.

for this season we have a special situation, because two playdays are played already.

what we have now:

10 maps with ca. 6 rounds (without wu) with maxpoints 100 and points 20, 19, ....
= 60 rounds per playday
so theoretical you can get 1200 points per playday
-------------------------------------------------------------
so point 3: if we change the amount of the mappool, will never change the racing time
point 1: if we change the maxpoints now it will change the reachable points per playday
-------------------------------------------------------------
what we want do:
5 maps with ca. 6 rounds, maxpoints 200 and points 40, 38, ...
= 30 rounds per playday
so theoretical you can get 1200 points per playday


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Raz0rMannni


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# Answer: 8 - 15.09.2015 at 16:33
Actually the max points per day is 1190. Don't know if it's important, just wanted to say it ^_^


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nuls

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# Answer: 9 - 15.09.2015 at 17:57
you are right, because of maxpoints 100.
But sometimes it´s better to keep the model simple.
Thats the reason why i used rounded values.

and i remember, reading is for nerds!
so what happens if you try it with difficult mathematics ^^

thx for the hint manni


Last edit by nuls at 15.09.2015 at 17:58 (1x Edited)
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Raz0rMannni


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# Answer: 10 - 17.09.2015 at 17:11
So would the results of the vote already be relevant for the next race day?


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no SkiLL but LucK

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# Answer: 11 - 17.09.2015 at 19:22
yes


------------------


--> each minority has the right to be discriminated <--
--> a lapdance is so much better when the stripper is crying <--
Guckt mal dieser Junge hat ein Busen. Wer hat ein nasses Handtuch? Komm her du Sahnebutterhupfdole.


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no SkiLL but LucK

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# Answer: 12 - 19.09.2015 at 09:24
Hei guys.

The vote is over =)

it was a clear one!

1 vote for option 1 (5 maps raceday on 30 maps mappack)
26 votes for option 2 (5 maps raceday on 20 maps mappack)
5 votes for option 3 (no change)

so for the remaining 6 racedays this will be fact:
- 20 maps in the mappack (10 worst karma voted maps got removed)
- 5 maps will be played
- rpoints: 40.38.36.34[...]6.4.2
- points limit: 200

for the next season we will collect the feedbacks and give you guys more vote options on several stuff, such as mappack size, release date of the maps, maps played during raceday, points system and so on.

I hope this change can "save" this season for you

Horns up and cu on tracks!

nSbL


------------------


--> each minority has the right to be discriminated <--
--> a lapdance is so much better when the stripper is crying <--
Guckt mal dieser Junge hat ein Busen. Wer hat ein nasses Handtuch? Komm her du Sahnebutterhupfdole.


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wtcfred


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# Answer: 13 - 20.09.2015 at 22:05
nice improvement guys
just one question tho:
how do we know what are the 10 worst karma maps we don't have to train now ?
thx


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no SkiLL but LucK

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# Answer: 14 - 20.09.2015 at 23:18
the 20 maps that stay are the ones on the servers such as cpl public train.
or you can download the actual mapack @cpl.dore2duo.de or hardcore.no-ip.org/mappack_cpl_s1

Creetz
nSbL


------------------


--> each minority has the right to be discriminated <--
--> a lapdance is so much better when the stripper is crying <--
Guckt mal dieser Junge hat ein Busen. Wer hat ein nasses Handtuch? Komm her du Sahnebutterhupfdole.


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TimaE


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# Answer: 15 - 20.09.2015 at 23:34
hey folks,

i cannot agree in any way shaxe, sorry. feel like CPL right now is dead. its nothing special anymore. its not a league worth training for with 5 maps played in 30-40minutes (including wu). i am really disappointed. just recently talked to no skill but luck already, but i felt like it was worth sharing:

i am also pretty concerned about such a heavy change happen during a season since only a small amount of players (as it looks like) sent the feedback. sure, you ended up with usinga poll / vote, but tbh since the league is already going on and the rules were clear for so long time, its not necessary to look at your page more often than once a week (usually right after the matches). and yes, i didnt noticed it.

there was obviously the intention to invite guys who casually play the league. i can fully understand why this change is kind of necessary; or why it could be important. but well, is this decision the best one? my point right now is, this change came way too quick. changing a season this way is devastating. of course you cannot change the points right now anymore, since your are bound to the points of the previous rounds. the points need a workover later on for upcoming seasons. however, i dont like, tbh cannot understand it.

summary:
- the vote was not necessary, not concrete enough, since it totally wastes your concept done earlier, and the timing is pretty bad. of course its a hard decision to make, but the result is "boring" as i feel like. right now this league feels like a "me too" product. it doesnt excites me. (arent you guys wondering why there were only like 40 people who voted, when you got 6 divisions with over a hundred potential players in?)
- additionally the points need a rework for the future. i really liked the way they were before, each individual map was pretty close on a race day, but keeping an eye of numbers like 40 - 0 seems weird. but there is actually no other way you could do. (i surely got it, just wanted to emphasize) and motoGP points as they were used in several other leagues weren't exciting and fun anymore.
- i can understand that you want the players to be happy with the league. and obviously some are, some not. you announced your concept like half an year ago or sth(?); every participated person knew what they had "subscribed" to, when they entered the league, with pressing the mania-login-system based "OK"-Button. (i dunno how to describe better).
the point is: calculating problems and finding different solutions, etc needs to be a part. and i feel like this one is way too rash.
- some words to a 30 maps pack ... well i can understand its a bit harsh for a casual to know each map after training one week (as it was in first week, maybe set it up to 2; or like 10 days?); however 30 is kind of hard even for a long-termed player i once was. having 20 during a whole season would be enough for excitment and variation. i agree it could also be based on the "lazyness"-fact, but 20 could be nice for upcoming seasons. if so, 10 maps each evening would be bad - lets say like 7 or 8. as it was in the previous racedays, my concentration started lagging on map 9. i think after playing more than 60 minutes this is quite a casual point of view and stat. and yeah, there arent many options since only the ending-points are most important. of course, define-ing words like "casual" is hard, and this is where you need to work on i feel like. is a casual trackmaniac a player with 2h a week, or 5h a week? is he/she playing alone or with friends, in case of some sort of a competitive or non-competitive motivation and stuff like that. how old? possibly having a family? around that i would make the changes.
- i am aware of the fact, that feedback usually is something rare. and with your CPL page lot of communication already happened. just giving it a thought, registering here just for giving a feedback is something a have not really a problem with, but its causing a bit of lazyness not to do it. i dont have a solution in mind right now, but potentially, there is one out there, that let the players easier communicate. just giving it a thought. (definetely less important in a to do hierarchy)


i really see potential in this league and concept. thats why i am disappointed about the way it changed right now, and i definetely feel way less motivated to stay.


Last edit by TimaE at 20.09.2015 at 23:37 (1x Edited)
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shaxe
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# Answer: 16 - 21.09.2015 at 08:59
changing a season this way is devastating

keeping a season going that expects players to play in a match every week that lasts almost 1 hour and 45 minutes would be more devastating, especially for the huge chunk of "casual" players. I gave my point of view and a lot of people agreed with it, people in my match yesterday were saying how much better it was, I think you are in a minority with this issue and more people will actually look forward to playing in CPL matches now since it doesn't mean losing a huge chunk of their sunday night and they can enjoy the competitive aspect without getting exhausted and wishing it would end.

but the result is "boring" as i feel like. right now this league feels like a "me too" product. it doesnt excites me. (arent you guys wondering why there were only like 40 people who voted, when you got 6 divisions with over a hundred potential players in?)


but that isn't true at all. less than half the people (at best) who qualified, turned up to play in week 1 and since then the number has declined, and i've seen numerous people talk about how 10 maps was too many and it took too long to get through matches. i personally wasn't going to keep playing if it stayed as 10 per match, and I am pretty sure other people felt the same. this competition is a lot like what TGC was but it's a lot more well organised. it isn't a "me too" competition in my eyes, whatever that even means, it fills a hole quite well between ESL events and something like the smurfs cup. just because it no longer drains your soul and leaves you feeling like you just played a game of chess for your life against death himself, that doesn't mean it is now a "me too" comp.


i can understand that you want the players to be happy with the league. and obviously some are, some not. you announced your concept like half an year ago or sth(?); every participated person knew what they had "subscribed" to, when they entered the league, with pressing the mania-login-system based "OK"-Button. (i dunno how to describe better).
the point is: calculating problems and finding different solutions, etc needs to be a part. and i feel like this one is way too rash.


more people are happy with that call than are not, the poll shows that. people knew what they were getting into but it wasn't concrete that matches would be 10 maps long at the time and what kind of logic is that anyway?

"oh most people aren't having fun with this current format for our competition that is meant to be fun, oh well, let's just keep it as is and watch it slowly die, because people clicked a button when the rules were foggy". c'mon man. letting the 10 map matches run their course for the entire season wouldn't give you any more information than what they already had, it would just do even more harm.


i personally had way more fun playing this week even though i came dead last, it was a lot more enjoyable and multiple people in my server echo'd that sentiment. i'm sorry you don't like how things have changed but you are in the minority here.


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TimaE


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# Answer: 17 - 21.09.2015 at 15:31
i can understand that you want the players to be happy with the league. and obviously some are, some not. you announced your concept like half an year ago or sth(?); every participated person knew what they had "subscribed" to, when they entered the league, with pressing the mania-login-system based "OK"-Button. (i dunno how to describe better).
the point is: calculating problems and finding different solutions, etc needs to be a part. and i feel like this one is way too rash.


more people are happy with that call than are not, the poll shows that. people knew what they were getting into but it wasn't concrete that matches would be 10 maps long at the time and what kind of logic is that anyway?

"oh most people aren't having fun with this current format for our competition that is meant to be fun, oh well, let's just keep it as is and watch it slowly die, because people clicked a button when the rules were foggy". c'mon man. letting the 10 map matches run their course for the entire season wouldn't give you any more information than what they already had, it would just do even more harm.



u actually didnt read what my point is. as i said earlier, the vote has not been seen by lots of people. less than half voted. a "vote" such as during a season is a bad thing in my opinion.
Whats the a logic? the rules were sooooo clear written down. if you wanted to have a 40minutes evening, you could have NOT clicked the join button. where is your logic problem? i dont get it.


show me, that i am in a minority group. that vote isnt a proof, since it was completely off publicity. noone can expect to be happen, or as said to be "there". seriously, a change like that makes the league look way mire childsplay and less serious to the outside than when they kept their concept. Yeah well, i am aware that my opinion ("this vote means less than you think") is very subjective. and i am pretty sure, you will quote that later on. the point is, votes like these were too rash, too internal, too less public, ... in my point of view, and you cant change that. thats my opinion. deal with it.
just to notice it: i dont want the "result" as it is to call "false", just the thing that it "happened" is ... .... weird. and tbh, i and as it seems some more players on our division didnt noticed the vote as well. as the match started there was a bit of confusion going on. however, airneko helped me.

"more people are happy with that". this is like the first question ever, when something is wrong from a subjective PoV. i see you emphasize your "vote", but a vote like that doesnt seem like a reason. codetermination from a crowd like a poll is good. the rash changes arent. and this is my answer, and you wont change it with words like that.




edit: as the admins had everyones logins in maniaplanet, why couldnt you send everyone an ingame message with the link to the vote? so you would have been clear for everyone to vote. because mouth to mouth propaganda is less efficient.


Last edit by TimaE at 21.09.2015 at 15:55 (6x Edited)
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nuls

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# Answer: 18 - 21.09.2015 at 17:04
unfortunately it isn't possible to send automated inGame messages to specific logins, otherwise we would use that function.


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jdi75


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# Answer: 19 - 21.09.2015 at 17:37
Well, just wanted to give my opinion. I would not be playing CPL anymore if the changes had not come. When i signed up i did so because i realy liked the concept and signed up early. For me when someone tries to do new things in Canyon i want to be supportive and back it up. I did not think that 10 maps would take that long! (smurfcup 7 maps 40 to 45 min)
Anyway for me to train 30 maps and be god at them would take me a looooong time, and i dont want to use all off my time in the game training for 1 comp. I also try to race smurfcup every week and now the CNC is coming up.
So for me the changes are realy great and i have to agree with Shaxe and that many in div2 stated that yesterday.
We have an average off 10 players in div2 i think and i feel it would be less if not for the changes.
Hope players will stay on and the league can develope even more for the seasons to come.


Last edit by jdi75 at 21.09.2015 at 17:43 (3x Edited)
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shaxe
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# Answer: 20 - 21.09.2015 at 18:07
Timae, there's a poll stating that 32 out of 37 people involved in CPL wanted there to be drastic changes made. You are talking like that means nothing when that is all we have to go by. My claim is backed by the only evidence we have and yours is backed by nothing other than your own personal feelings. The vote may not have been seen by everyone, but of those who did see it, 86% of the people wanted the competition to be changed, I don't know what more there is to say. There's no way, that of the people who didn't vote, that there would be a number even close to 86% who felt that things should remain the same.


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